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	<title>Comments on: A new found respect for acceptance tests</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2010/07/11/a-new-found-respect-for-acceptance-tests/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2010/07/11/a-new-found-respect-for-acceptance-tests/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on Software Development</description>
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		<title>By: Technical Debt around release time at Mark Needham</title>
		<link>http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2010/07/11/a-new-found-respect-for-acceptance-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-42359</link>
		<dc:creator>Technical Debt around release time at Mark Needham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 14:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/?p=2668#comment-42359</guid>
		<description>[...] written previously about some of the technical debt that we incurred in that first release and while I think most of the time we made the right call I think there were [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] written previously about some of the technical debt that we incurred in that first release and while I think most of the time we made the right call I think there were [...]</p>
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		<title>By: TDD: I hate deleting unit tests at Mark Needham</title>
		<link>http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2010/07/11/a-new-found-respect-for-acceptance-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-41581</link>
		<dc:creator>TDD: I hate deleting unit tests at Mark Needham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jul 2010 23:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/?p=2668#comment-41581</guid>
		<description>[...] on from my post about the value we found in acceptance tests on our project when doing a large scale refacto... I had an interesting discussion with Jak Charlton and Ben Hall about deleting unit tests when [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on from my post about the value we found in acceptance tests on our project when doing a large scale refacto&#8230; I had an interesting discussion with Jak Charlton and Ben Hall about deleting unit tests when [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Needham</title>
		<link>http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2010/07/11/a-new-found-respect-for-acceptance-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-41242</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Needham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/?p=2668#comment-41242</guid>
		<description>@cyrille - yeh we were able to validate the spreadsheet with the business owner who had the most knowledge around that area of the application so having it in a spreadsheet was useful to us for the same reason that you describe. 

We did originally look at using Ruby via IronRuby but noone knew it well enough on the team so we didn&#039;t go with that.

The other benefit of the spreadsheet is that for some of the calculations we had the formulas in the spreadsheet so it was effectively a double booking system for ensuring that we had worked them out correctly!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@cyrille &#8211; yeh we were able to validate the spreadsheet with the business owner who had the most knowledge around that area of the application so having it in a spreadsheet was useful to us for the same reason that you describe. </p>
<p>We did originally look at using Ruby via IronRuby but noone knew it well enough on the team so we didn&#8217;t go with that.</p>
<p>The other benefit of the spreadsheet is that for some of the calculations we had the formulas in the spreadsheet so it was effectively a double booking system for ensuring that we had worked them out correctly!</p>
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		<title>By: cyrille</title>
		<link>http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2010/07/11/a-new-found-respect-for-acceptance-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-41235</link>
		<dc:creator>cyrille</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/?p=2668#comment-41235</guid>
		<description>Hi Mark,

Thanks for sharing your practices. I&#039;ve used Excel spreadsheets to drive tests of some complex calculations in the past, and even though it could have been considered almost as unit tests (testing one single service), they were still acceptance tests since the business analyst was able to &quot;validate&quot; them (still with help from developers anyway).

I was using Apache POI to read straight from .xls files. Now I&#039;d have a look at the various BDD frameworks as well for that kind of data-driven testing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mark,</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing your practices. I&#8217;ve used Excel spreadsheets to drive tests of some complex calculations in the past, and even though it could have been considered almost as unit tests (testing one single service), they were still acceptance tests since the business analyst was able to &#8220;validate&#8221; them (still with help from developers anyway).</p>
<p>I was using Apache POI to read straight from .xls files. Now I&#8217;d have a look at the various BDD frameworks as well for that kind of data-driven testing.</p>
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		<title>By: Claudio Oliva de Lyra</title>
		<link>http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2010/07/11/a-new-found-respect-for-acceptance-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-41223</link>
		<dc:creator>Claudio Oliva de Lyra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/?p=2668#comment-41223</guid>
		<description>Hello Mark,

To me, the natural approach to software development is to submit code to implacable &#039;wide-and-wild&#039; refactorings until it matures to the point in which the &#039;senses are pleased&#039;. No progress without the protection of a reassuring safety net.

I understand acceptance checks as sanity checks concerned with the detection of large-grained deviations from the system&#039;s intended goals (ultimately, its raison d&#039;etre), allowing quick recalibration while things can still be undone/fixed in reasonable terms.

You say that acceptance tests are invaluable even in situations in which we are fooled to believe that &#039;no harm can result from such a small change&#039;. This is a perfect statement! I think this is one of those &#039;obvious&#039; truths that nonetheless requires people some time and experience until it is fully appreciated.  

Just wanted to add that in my view unit tests differ from acceptance tests in the way that they are indeed &#039;more&#039; disposable in nature. They usually do not age well and, along time, tend to be discarded or commented out as a source of documentation. Their use is frequently more ad-hoc and temporary, although of course no less important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Mark,</p>
<p>To me, the natural approach to software development is to submit code to implacable &#8216;wide-and-wild&#8217; refactorings until it matures to the point in which the &#8216;senses are pleased&#8217;. No progress without the protection of a reassuring safety net.</p>
<p>I understand acceptance checks as sanity checks concerned with the detection of large-grained deviations from the system&#8217;s intended goals (ultimately, its raison d&#8217;etre), allowing quick recalibration while things can still be undone/fixed in reasonable terms.</p>
<p>You say that acceptance tests are invaluable even in situations in which we are fooled to believe that &#8216;no harm can result from such a small change&#8217;. This is a perfect statement! I think this is one of those &#8216;obvious&#8217; truths that nonetheless requires people some time and experience until it is fully appreciated.  </p>
<p>Just wanted to add that in my view unit tests differ from acceptance tests in the way that they are indeed &#8216;more&#8217; disposable in nature. They usually do not age well and, along time, tend to be discarded or commented out as a source of documentation. Their use is frequently more ad-hoc and temporary, although of course no less important.</p>
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		<title>By: The Morning Brew - Chris Alcock</title>
		<link>http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2010/07/11/a-new-found-respect-for-acceptance-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-41217</link>
		<dc:creator>The Morning Brew - Chris Alcock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 07:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/?p=2668#comment-41217</guid>
		<description>[...] A new found respect for acceptance tests - Mark Needham discusses the importance of Acceptance Tests over unit tests in providing a safety net when carrying out major restructuring of your code [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A new found respect for acceptance tests &#8211; Mark Needham discusses the importance of Acceptance Tests over unit tests in providing a safety net when carrying out major restructuring of your code [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Twitted by philip_schwarz</title>
		<link>http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2010/07/11/a-new-found-respect-for-acceptance-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-41186</link>
		<dc:creator>Twitted by philip_schwarz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jul 2010 22:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/?p=2668#comment-41186</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was Twitted by philip_schwarz [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was Twitted by philip_schwarz [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention A new found respect for acceptance tests at Mark Needham -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2010/07/11/a-new-found-respect-for-acceptance-tests/comment-page-1/#comment-41167</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention A new found respect for acceptance tests at Mark Needham -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.markhneedham.com/blog/?p=2668#comment-41167</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Mike Cottmeyer. Mike Cottmeyer said: Interesting Post... A new found respect for acceptance tests http://dlvr.it/2WtxK [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Mike Cottmeyer. Mike Cottmeyer said: Interesting Post&#8230; A new found respect for acceptance tests <a href="http://dlvr.it/2WtxK" rel="nofollow">http://dlvr.it/2WtxK</a> [...]</p>
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